The Art and Strategy of VIP Upsells in Online Business

Tracie: 00:00:05

Hello, everyone, Tracie here, your resident business rebel, and you're

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listening to Cocktails, Coffee and

Conversations podcast, the show that

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lets true stories and insider secrets

of digital entrepreneur life unfold.

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: 00:00:19

Our business world is growing.

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: 00:00:20

And as an online business coach and

digital product creator, I believe you

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: 00:00:24

didn't become an entrepreneur to grin

and bear your way through business.

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So I'll be your guide as we drop in

on coaching calls, have intimate sit

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downs with online personalities you love

and discuss ideas, opportunities, and

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strategies circulating our online world.

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So pop in your earbuds, tap follow.

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And join me as I demystify

this thing called business.

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As long as things are a conscious

decision, you're not doing it wrong.

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There is no wrong.

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There's just doing it your way.

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Welcome in everyone.

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Today I am joined by Sue

McLachlan of the Unicorn Advisory.

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If you haven't come across Sue

yet, she's an online business

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strategist and Kajabi expert.

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She loves talking about Kajabi.

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Marketing courses, launching,

and online business.

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And that's what you'll hear in these

special sessions where you get to drop

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in on us having an inside chat about

hot topics in the online business world.

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And today's is about the sometimes

controversial VIP upsell.

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Ever wondered about adding

a VIP upsell to your offer?

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Well, we're going to dive into if

you should, when you should and how

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to, if you choose to, to make sure

it's different from your main offer.

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Let's go beyond the idea of a money

grab and into how these options

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can elevate your offer and impact.

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Let's listen in.

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Should you do it?

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Just because someone told you to do

it, a coach or someone in a program,

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or should you do it because you've

seen someone else doing it and you

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think, Oh, someone else is doing it.

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I should be doing it too.

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Do you need to have some kind of

VIP offer next to your main job?

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Offer.

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And are there situations where

you might need it in situations

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where you don't need it?

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What's what's your, what's your thinking?

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I would say that need is a strong word

and we don't really need any of it.

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Right.

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It's, it's what is it that we're trying

to build and what's going to help us

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kind of like feel relaxed and help the

people to, to the best of our ability.

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Right.

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So like VIPs aren't, um, a money grab.

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You know, that they don't have to just

be like some sort of, Oh, let me make

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this even more expensive for somebody.

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Uh, it's very much a case preached.

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That is so common.

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It's like, Oh, well, you know, you're

leaving money on the table if you

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don't have like a higher price point.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And I'm also leaving money

on the table at 10 a.

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m.

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on a Saturday.

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And I don't care.

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It's Saturday.

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Leave me alone.

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You know, I'm going to be under my duvet.

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So what, the, the, the, as long as

things are a conscious decision,

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you're not doing it wrong.

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There is no wrong.

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There's just doing it your way.

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And like the, the, Ideal concept and

reason behind a VIP, um, bump, like,

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uh, or upgrade off of whatever somebody

wants to call it is to give people

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a higher touch who needs it, right?

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So like, if you have a group program,

that's going to take care of thousands.

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We don't have thousands of calendar

time one on one, but for 15 people,

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we might be able to fit in an hour

call or we, or sometimes like I

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even have a VIP that is a group call

because it is a low ticket mass.

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Audience.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, for the 10 to 50

people that might take me up

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on it, we all come together.

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But for, you know, 500 or a thousand,

that's not really that realistic, right?

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Uh, you know, it's like, it doesn't

matter what zoom plane you're on.

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We're not going to fit.

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So there's, there's that.

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Aspect of it that just kind of, um,

the people who really feel like they

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need that time from you can still

get a bit of that, even if they are

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in that group environment where they

get to learn from each other as well.

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Yeah.

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And also there's situations like if you

are currently a coach and you're moving

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the other way where you're coaching one

to one and you really love it and you

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enjoy it, but you just maxed out with time

and you're bringing in digital products

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to try and You know, help you not have

to rely on that time for money, but you

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still want to be able to offer that.

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It gives you a way where you can

make the transition and you sort of

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can have this, you know, self study

sort of do it yourself program.

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And then for a select few, you can

offer that, you know, that one on one

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so that, like you said, for the people

that need it, and it's not going to be

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everyone, it actually helps you, you

know, help a bigger spectrum of your

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audience, because some people will

always go for the one on one option.

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Thank you, Ada.

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Have the funds.

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They just don't want to deal with the

hassle of having to go through and

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learn something, or they just really

learn best when working with someone.

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Whereas other people, you know, are like,

Oh, just let me do it in my own time.

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I want to study at midnight.

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I don't want to have to

worry about calls and stuff.

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So it's kind of, you know, a way that you

can help more than one type of person.

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Yeah.

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Cause there's also like

privacy things, right?

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Like depending on what you're coaching

people through or the type of human

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that you work with, they might have a

very generic industry standard need,

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but they don't want to talk about it in

the big group, you know, that they have,

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they have their own issues, their own

reasons, their own situations for why

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they're not willing to like hold their

hand up for a hot seat, you know, with 20

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other people, they, they want that more.

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So, I mean, like VIPs.

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Can can be like one on one and just

a Voxer to write like it doesn't

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have to be a dedicated zoom.

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There's lots of ways to give

people that kind of private time.

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So either.

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Talk through what they think are special

circumstances or just give them that safe

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space to feel like that they can actually

kind of offload, you know, what's going

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on in, in relation to what it is that, you

know, that you two have already agreed to

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work with, you know, like with each other

on, uh, you know, and, and go from there.

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I mean, I have a client that, um,

helps people going through a divorce.

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Okay.

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Well, there might be.

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Some places where you're

okay to talk about it.

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And some humans who are sharing it

all on Instagram stories day by day.

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But for a lot of times it's like,

can I join this group anonymously?

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You know, can I add code names?

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Is there someplace I can ask a

question, but you don't call me

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out whenever you go to answer it?

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You know, there's, there's those

kinds of situations that, you

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know, that naturally occur.

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Oh, it's such a nice way to look at it.

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Like instead of it, cause

none of what you've said.

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Is about the money, like

absolutely none of it.

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It is literally about how you can

create these little containers within

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your, you know, what you're doing to

be able to help people with exactly

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where they're at and what they need.

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And this is why I love

talking to you because it's.

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It's kind of taking the focus off

you as the course creator, coach,

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consultant, and putting the focus

on, well, what do people need?

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Like, how can I help them?

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And, you know, turning it into meeting

their solutions rather than being

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like, how can I make this offer?

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Make me more.

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Money, which is unfortunately the

first place that people turn to when

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you are looking at adding that tier.

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Yeah.

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And, and I will say, you know, especially

with, with what I do, profit is not a

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bad word in my world, you know, and I'm

all about like, yeah, you know, and, and,

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and I'm all about like having, um, a, an,

an ethical cost buildup is what they're

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actually called in the finance world.

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Um, and so it's like making sure

that you have those layers in, um,

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Of not just saying, Oh, they get

access to me, therefore it has to

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be four or five figures, but more

it's like, um, this is the time that

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I would be doing something else.

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This is where I'm, I'm already focusing.

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I need to bring in these

other team members.

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I need to outsource this, you know,

there's all these layers in, and it's,

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and that, that's what we mean when we say

like, it's not just a cash grab, right?

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Like it will be a higher price.

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Um, but that is.

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Yeah.

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Like, but that, that is for that access.

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That is also to cover the other

resources versus whenever people just

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look at it, um, not just as a cash

grab, but also as like a velvet rope.

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Yeah, right.

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You know, like, like they're, they're

using, um, they're trying to make up a

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luxury brand or they, they are trying to

kind of like create a poor tax or, um,

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you know, the segment will say that their

audience in, you know, into other people.

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And there's ways to do that without it

being about judging people's wallets.

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Right.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And it also comes Back to like,

what is your motivation for

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doing it in the first place?

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If your motivation is just about money,

you're going to create a different

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offer than if your motivation is about,

well, what, you know, what do people

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in my audience for this product need

to help them be able to, you know,

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implement it better, um, get support.

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If they need extra support,

like you, that's what I mean.

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Like when you were talking about

everything that you mentioned before, it

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was from the perspective of that client

customer student and what they need

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rather than looking at it from yourself.

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However, you know, It's it does

need to be priced at that place.

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That makes it make sense for you.

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Like for me right now, having come

off, you know, months of burnout

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recovery, like I just can't do calls

the way I used to be able to do calls.

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Like, you know, in the past I could

have done four and five calls in a day.

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Sure.

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I would have been tired, but

now two calls that I knew.

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Yeah.

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Like I am absolutely maxed out.

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And if I then, if I had two calls every

day, like a two call, if I have a two

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call day now, I'm like, All right.

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The rest of the day, I can't do much.

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And so I have to account for

that when I'm thinking about

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the price point of doing that.

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And I also have to account for if I can

really only probably fit, I don't know,

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two or three, maybe four people max

in a week or to work with at one time.

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And for you, that might be different.

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Like you might be like,

you're looking at me going.

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Uh, for people like you might be like,

okay, two is enough for my capacity.

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And, and that is completely individual.

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And some people will be like, well, I

can only work with two people at a time.

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And so you have to price that

accordingly because you have to

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then you've got that limitation.

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And that is also okay.

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If that container is.

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Limited to, you know, two, five,

10 people, whatever the case is.

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And then because of that, it is a

substantial investment because you're

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like, well, it takes a lot out of me

to give to you and to support you.

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And I want to do that, but you know,

I need to be compensated for that.

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Right.

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But I mean, it's, it's the cost of what

you're not doing at that time, right?

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Like how you're not using

your time in your business.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But that's where it's kind of

that tricky thing where you're

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like, Oh, am I chanting too much?

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And it, and it's a case of, if you

start first from what someone needs

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and that is your starting point and

then you work out, well, what is the

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appropriate price rather than going,

I want to have a five figure offer.

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What would I do?

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Like it's a completely different.

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You know, I don't know what you call

it, mindset framing, like whatever

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the, it, it, it, it's a whole different

feel, you know, it's a feel for you.

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It's a different feel for when your

audience receives as much as they

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want, you know, like, like as much

as of, of the, the content as well

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as like the sales promo stuff, how

much that they'll even be willing to

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accept, you know, at, at that, at that

point too, because it very much has.

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Um, has a different, a

different feel to it.

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And even it's one of those things where

like, even if people can't name what

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it is, they know something is off.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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It's yeah.

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Like I always called it

my spidey sense, you know?

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Yeah.

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It's, it's that same thing

with like, Oh, you know, let

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me not walk down that street.

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Let me go down this street instead.

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It's those kinds of things where it's

like something about this feels off.

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It I'm processing this.

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And it's Thousandth of a second,

you know, so like, there's no

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like conscious dialogue going on.

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It's just, I'm going to keep scrolling

or I'm going to click away or I'm

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going to leave the, you know, the

webinar, the zoom meeting, the whatever.

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Yeah.

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And, and I know that we could have

an entire episode on just pricing.

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Um, but we can also have one.

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Could we have an entire episode on the

emotional aspect of decision making

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because what you just described, that

is someone making a decision based on

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an emotion, which it doesn't matter

if you have a 50, 000 sales page by

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the best copywriter in the entire

world and all the bells and whistles.

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If someone had goes emotion,

none of that matters.

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And that's the real thing.

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And even.

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Even when they're logical decision makers,

there's still the emotion underlie, right?

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Because what, what happens on

a subconscious versus conscious

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level is you're trying to talk

yourself into something or trying

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to talk yourself out of something.

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So when, when you, you fall.

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You know, whenever you like just follow

the logic and you're like, Oh, okay.

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These take the boxes when you're actually

in that container, you're miserable.

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You know, like, like that

none of the videos are right.

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All the things are wrong.

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Oh, you know, why couldn't the

community be here instead of there?

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Like you end up with this kind

of like curmudgeon personality

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and you're like, what's going on?

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I really wanted to do this.

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And it's like, Did you?

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Well, that's what I

just wanted to mention.

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I hope we'll, I hope, hope we'll

try and stay on track with this.

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Cause we can have a, we can have

a lot of discussions about all the

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different things, but you were just

saying about how you can end up in that

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place where you're like, Oh, like as

a, you know, as the person and, and

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maybe that's because you're offering

some sort of coaching container as

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an upsell, but you don't really want

to, but you're doing it because.

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Someone on the interwebs said

you should like, you know, is it

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something like, do you always need

to have that extra tea with an

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offer or can you just have an offer?

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And he's the offer like in your opinion.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it works the same whether

you're the seller or the buyer.

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Yeah.

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It's that thing of like, like, um,

you never do write your promo emails.

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You never get that stupid real made.

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You never do these things because

it's like, okay, I had this plan.

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I had this template, I had this,

whatever, and I'm going to do it.

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And I just don't do it.

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And then the self shame, the guilt, the

whatever, the what, what's wrong with me?

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Um, why is everybody else doing this?

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And I'm not, and it's like,

There's nothing wrong with you.

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It's just a massive sign that

that's not the right one for you.

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And that can be right now.

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It can just be, I don't want to add

this to this offer, but it might be

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the right strategy for another offer.

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Right.

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We don't have to cookie

cutter every single offer.

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We don't have to always have

a VIP date or never have it.

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We're Goldilocks, right?

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We get to have that sweet middle point.

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Because it's our business,

we get to decide and we get

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to decide every single time.

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We get to choose what

everything looks like.

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And also it could be that you think

you've got to add some sort of one on

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one as your VIP to you, because again,

that's what you see other people doing.

308

: 00:15:17

But it's also good to think about you

as a As a person, like, do you even

309

: 00:15:21

want to have any, because there is no

shame and no any shade or whatever,

310

: 00:15:27

and not ever offering anything.

311

: 00:15:28

One on one like your VIP team

might just come with, you know,

312

: 00:15:32

additional bonuses and resources.

313

: 00:15:34

If you decide to offer it, it doesn't

always need to be about coaching.

314

: 00:15:37

And I, and I have found that a lot of,

you know, things when it leads into

315

: 00:15:41

that is really leaning towards coaching.

316

: 00:15:44

Um, and yeah, it can,

there's other options.

317

: 00:15:47

What, um, have you seen that?

318

: 00:15:49

Um, you know, isn't coaching,

but is a way to sort of have that

319

: 00:15:53

elevated, more supportive way.

320

: 00:15:55

Um, yeah.

321

: 00:15:57

And you can kind of think about it.

322

: 00:15:59

You know, like a bundle at that point.

323

: 00:16:02

Right.

324

: 00:16:02

So I've, I've done them

personally, as well as like

325

: 00:16:06

seeing them done with my clients.

326

: 00:16:07

Um, so like one, I said that

one option was a group call.

327

: 00:16:10

So that is still a coaching element,

but it is, you know, like, um,

328

: 00:16:14

um, everybody there together.

329

: 00:16:16

And what I do for mine, not that

anybody else has to do this, but is

330

: 00:16:19

I then promise them that they, they

will have like a laser coaching time,

331

: 00:16:23

you know, if they come on it, right.

332

: 00:16:25

So it's still a group,

but I will stay there.

333

: 00:16:27

And it may be in time

to, yeah, yeah, yeah.

334

: 00:16:31

In time to talk to everybody.

335

: 00:16:32

Right.

336

: 00:16:32

Um, the other option is like a VIP.

337

: 00:16:35

You also get, um, you know, the, this

other course that I have, um, you get

338

: 00:16:40

access to, you know, to the group Voxer

channel, you get access to basically

339

: 00:16:45

it, it's a way to, um, Have access,

not just to more material, right?

340

: 00:16:50

Cause we're not students,

we're business owners.

341

: 00:16:53

Yeah.

342

: 00:16:53

And, and it, but it's a way to get

access to a different community as well.

343

: 00:16:58

Yeah.

344

: 00:16:58

Right.

345

: 00:16:59

You know, um, so it's not just

like a bunch of people that may

346

: 00:17:02

or may not be in like a student

Facebook group or something, but

347

: 00:17:06

it's a dedicated group where it's

like, they can share their wins.

348

: 00:17:09

They can share their questions.

349

: 00:17:10

They can learn from each other.

350

: 00:17:12

And have kind of that taste of like a

peer mastermind situation where, you know,

351

: 00:17:16

where they're going off of each other.

352

: 00:17:18

And then I'm also there to

facilitate as much as I am or am not.

353

: 00:17:22

Right.

354

: 00:17:22

I think that I've seen is, um, where

you have a self study program and you

355

: 00:17:26

sell it as self study on, on evergreen.

356

: 00:17:29

And then you maybe like once

or twice a year offer a live.

357

: 00:17:33

Version of that where you actually

have that implementation focus, and

358

: 00:17:36

maybe you go through it as a group

for like four weeks or six weeks.

359

: 00:17:39

And it's kind of turning that

evergreen product into a cohort,

360

: 00:17:42

but not everyone wants to do that.

361

: 00:17:43

So it's an additional price point for

that kind of guided version of the course.

362

: 00:17:48

So it's not that the course is different.

363

: 00:17:50

It's just that instead of someone

just going off on their own, they get

364

: 00:17:53

to have that experience of doing it

with a group of other people, which

365

: 00:17:56

is, you know, always motivating.

366

: 00:17:58

And for some people it's what they need.

367

: 00:17:59

Others are just like.

368

: 00:18:00

Just leave me to my own devices.

369

: 00:18:02

I want to go through everything

on triple speed and get it

370

: 00:18:04

done by the end of the week.

371

: 00:18:06

And you know, for those people that do

want that implementation and they do want

372

: 00:18:09

that, Hey, let's get this done by the end

of the week, it can help give motivation.

373

: 00:18:13

And that's a way of

differentiating between two offers.

374

: 00:18:17

And yeah.

375

: 00:18:18

And the one that I was thinking

of was duh for my quiz program.

376

: 00:18:23

Oh, um, my, my VIP option there is

not actually more access to Yeah.

377

: 00:18:29

Yeah.

378

: 00:18:29

Yeah.

379

: 00:18:29

It's, it's not more access to me.

380

: 00:18:31

It's access to tech experts.

381

: 00:18:33

Yeah.

382

: 00:18:34

Nice.

383

: 00:18:35

Right.

384

: 00:18:35

Because, I mean, And instead of charging

more for the entire program and bringing

385

: 00:18:42

those people in for everybody, it's a

way to say, you know, I have my team.

386

: 00:18:47

I have my designer or I

have this under control.

387

: 00:18:49

I don't need that part

versus I've tried on my own.

388

: 00:18:53

Can one of you do it?

389

: 00:18:55

Right.

390

: 00:18:55

And so it's bringing in the platform

people, it's bringing the designer

391

: 00:18:59

and it's bringing in a VA group where,

so like whichever aspect of that you

392

: 00:19:04

need, you pay one bundle price with

the actual group program, um, which

393

: 00:19:10

of course has payment options as well.

394

: 00:19:12

But then that way it's like a

holistic pricing to get whatever

395

: 00:19:16

part of that, that they need.

396

: 00:19:18

So it's.

397

: 00:19:19

I mean, you could kind of think of it

like coaching, but it's not for me.

398

: 00:19:22

It's from the people who know what

they're talking about in that area

399

: 00:19:26

coming in to help and to supplement.

400

: 00:19:28

And you've already vetted those people

and it saves the job of someone having

401

: 00:19:32

to then go and recruit and find,

which is a whole thing in itself.

402

: 00:19:36

Yes.

403

: 00:19:36

So like I have a tech person.

404

: 00:19:39

To sometimes to find the tech person

takes more work than the actual tech.

405

: 00:19:43

And so if you were finding the right one.

406

: 00:19:45

Yeah, exactly.

407

: 00:19:46

And so if you can say, Hey, I can shortcut

your time by saying, here's this person.

408

: 00:19:51

They'll help you implement.

409

: 00:19:51

That's a really great incentive.

410

: 00:19:54

And it's not on you then as the, you

know, as the, as the business owner

411

: 00:20:00

to provide more resources, which

you may not have the capacity for.

412

: 00:20:03

And that's a nice way to sort of

add value without it necessarily

413

: 00:20:06

being you adding more of you.

414

: 00:20:09

Yeah.

415

: 00:20:09

Yeah.

416

: 00:20:09

And in, in my example, I was laughing

because, uh, it's not a capacity thing.

417

: 00:20:13

It's a knowledge thing.

418

: 00:20:16

. . Like, because you call on your tech.

419

: 00:20:17

I've never touched tech expert.

420

: 00:20:18

Yeah, exactly.

421

: 00:20:19

Yeah.

422

: 00:20:20

Yeah.

423

: 00:20:20

I was, I was like, it's you

for Kajabi, I have someone that

424

: 00:20:22

does WordPress and Squarespace.

425

: 00:20:24

Like it's the same human that does both.

426

: 00:20:26

Yeah.

427

: 00:20:26

Um, you know, and then like the canvas

side and then the VA people to tick the

428

: 00:20:29

boxes and put it in because they're, and

they're not just, um, you know, 'cause

429

: 00:20:33

VA isn't a job title, it's an industry.

430

: 00:20:36

Right?

431

: 00:20:37

And, and so it's a case of it's

someone who actually knows how to

432

: 00:20:40

use the quiz program, actually knows

how to use, you know, whatever your

433

: 00:20:43

email provider is actually knows how

to use whatever your website provider

434

: 00:20:46

is to plug all those pieces in.

435

: 00:20:49

So it's, it's a lot quicker.

436

: 00:20:51

And because I get to come to them and

say, Hey, can you do this for my people?

437

: 00:20:56

Then I get to create a bundle price

that again, if someone was doing that

438

: 00:21:00

on their own, Who knows what kind

of rates they would have, what kind

439

: 00:21:03

of trial and error there would be.

440

: 00:21:05

They would feel like they were writing,

you know, um, like, like, uh, doing

441

: 00:21:09

four invoices instead of just paying

one, you know, all that kind of stuff.

442

: 00:21:13

So that is another like real

life example of a VIP offer.

443

: 00:21:18

That's not coaching, not for me.

444

: 00:21:20

And a lot of people for a lot of people,

they value their time really strongly.

445

: 00:21:25

And they will always go for that.

446

: 00:21:27

You'll have this, you know,

percentage of your audience.

447

: 00:21:29

Even if you're, it doesn't matter what

niche you're in, there will always

448

: 00:21:33

be some small part of your audience

that will just immediately be like, Oh

449

: 00:21:37

yeah, I want someone to do it for me.

450

: 00:21:39

Or like, I just want the quickest path.

451

: 00:21:42

And if the, the path, this, you

know, VOP path is going to get me

452

: 00:21:45

there quicker or get me there better

or help me more than they'll just

453

: 00:21:48

be like, Oh, I'll just take that.

454

: 00:21:50

Option.

455

: 00:21:50

And it's, you know, easy.

456

: 00:21:51

And sometimes as well, I think we can

forget as a business owners, if we

457

: 00:21:55

aren't the type of person to do that

because we are quite self-sufficient.

458

: 00:21:58

It's easy to forget that other people

in our audience don't think like us.

459

: 00:22:03

Um, and I come across, you know, a

probably more so for me in my audience

460

: 00:22:07

because there's a lot of people that

are newer and, you know, uh, perhaps a

461

: 00:22:10

bit stretched for resources and going,

oh, I've had to pay for this course

462

: 00:22:13

and that course and this software.

463

: 00:22:14

And they're trying to, and this software.

464

: 00:22:16

And software.

465

: 00:22:16

Yeah.

466

: 00:22:17

And they're trying to

keep costs under control.

467

: 00:22:18

So the VIP option isn't

always the natural choice.

468

: 00:22:22

And especially if you, as the,

as the creator, like for you,

469

: 00:22:25

you might be in that situation.

470

: 00:22:27

So your mindset, it's, it's

just one of those things.

471

: 00:22:29

I think it's really important with

pricing in general is not to base your

472

: 00:22:33

pricing decisions on what you as a person

think and actually get the feedback.

473

: 00:22:37

From your audience and your

customers about what they think,

474

: 00:22:40

because often it's so different.

475

: 00:22:42

And, um, you know, we can go into a

whole nother thing, all about pricing.

476

: 00:22:46

I'm sure we will have many chats

about pricing, but I just thought,

477

: 00:22:49

just, you know, just remember that

if you are considering, especially

478

: 00:22:53

if you're doing something, you're

like, Oh, that seems so expensive.

479

: 00:22:56

It's okay.

480

: 00:22:57

If it seems expensive for you, because

you are not your ideal customer, your

481

: 00:23:01

ideal customer is, you know, someone

potentially in your audience who values.

482

: 00:23:06

Time, perhaps over money and speed and

execution and ease of implementation.

483

: 00:23:11

So like you just said, they don't

have to go and do four enforcers

484

: 00:23:15

and find four freelancers and,

and go through the hassle.

485

: 00:23:17

They might be like, I avoid hassle

and I pay for that privilege.

486

: 00:23:21

Whereas you might be like, I, I.

487

: 00:23:24

Can handle the hassle

because I'm on a budget.

488

: 00:23:27

So, yeah.

489

: 00:23:28

Yeah.

490

: 00:23:29

And it's that classic trade

off with business, right?

491

: 00:23:32

It's, it's always, um, uh, like

your two most viable resources

492

: 00:23:36

is your money and your time.

493

: 00:23:37

Yeah, exactly.

494

: 00:23:38

Sometimes you have more of

one than the other, right?

495

: 00:23:40

So we just kind of play to

whatever advantage that we have.

496

: 00:23:44

And so for, for all of you listening

to us, um, ask yourself, are,

497

: 00:23:49

are the people that you're going

after, is it different people?

498

: 00:23:54

For each of your different offers,

or is it the same human that's

499

: 00:23:57

at a different time each time?

500

: 00:24:00

Right.

501

: 00:24:00

Because I can tell you

that I am at a point now.

502

: 00:24:03

I am so tired of learning things.

503

: 00:24:05

I just want somebody else to do it.

504

: 00:24:07

Whereas in the beginning, it wasn't

just like a question of, do I have

505

: 00:24:10

more time or do I have more money?

506

: 00:24:11

Which one do I want to leverage?

507

: 00:24:12

Which one do I want to use?

508

: 00:24:14

It was also a case of,

Oh, this is interesting.

509

: 00:24:16

I want to learn what this is.

510

: 00:24:18

Yeah.

511

: 00:24:18

You know, or this is my area of expertise,

but here's a whole other like, you know,

512

: 00:24:23

lane that I haven't experienced yet.

513

: 00:24:25

So I need to learn it in order to

help when I am coaching other people.

514

: 00:24:30

And now I'm like, I don't, I

don't, I don't need to learn

515

: 00:24:33

the 15, 000 depths of Canva.

516

: 00:24:36

It doesn't excite me.

517

: 00:24:37

Other people absolutely love it.

518

: 00:24:39

Great.

519

: 00:24:41

Yeah.

520

: 00:24:42

I, I go down such, such long, long rabbit

holes or rabbit warrens, I think of, of

521

: 00:24:49

things where it's like trying to find one

stupid picture and I look up and it's been

522

: 00:24:53

45 minutes and there there's that case

of like, oh, okay, I can use this one,

523

: 00:24:58

but, but I'm, there may be another one.

524

: 00:25:00

Let me keep scrolling.

525

: 00:25:01

There may.

526

: 00:25:02

I mean, this scroll bar has to end, right?

527

: 00:25:04

I'm so far down.

528

: 00:25:05

I mean, I have to almost be to the end.

529

: 00:25:07

Right.

530

: 00:25:07

Okay.

531

: 00:25:07

Yeah.

532

: 00:25:08

Hour and 15 minutes later.

533

: 00:25:09

I still haven't picked the stupid picture.

534

: 00:25:12

To, to do that for you makes sense.

535

: 00:25:14

For you.

536

: 00:25:15

Yeah.

537

: 00:25:15

In the beginning, you might've

been like, Oh no, I really want

538

: 00:25:18

to learn how to, how to do this.

539

: 00:25:19

And that's where it's, you know,

I'll go back to what you were talking

540

: 00:25:23

about right in the beginning when

you were sort of thinking about,

541

: 00:25:25

well, what is my client need?

542

: 00:25:27

Like what does the person who this offer

for, like what do they need and not make

543

: 00:25:32

it about you and, and what you think is

appropriate, like really look at them

544

: 00:25:37

and how your offer can support them.

545

: 00:25:40

I love what you said about like,

well, what place are they at?

546

: 00:25:43

On their, on their journey.

547

: 00:25:44

And, and do you have almost like with the

one offer, like two different parts of

548

: 00:25:49

your audience, like you've got that part

of your audience that's, you know, like,

549

: 00:25:53

Oh no, you know, learn this and dig in.

550

: 00:25:55

And then you've got part of your

audience that's like, well, I want to

551

: 00:25:58

learn this, but I also just want to

shortcut this whole process and get

552

: 00:26:00

it done as quickly as, as possible.

553

: 00:26:03

But that's still learning the same thing.

554

: 00:26:04

Like with your quizzes program, for

example, like you've got people who

555

: 00:26:07

want to learn a quiz and then you've got

people who want to learn it, but they

556

: 00:26:10

also just want to get their thing done.

557

: 00:26:11

Like, Now.

558

: 00:26:12

Yeah.

559

: 00:26:13

Yeah.

560

: 00:26:14

And, and it's also a case of like, like

looking for those of you who've been in

561

: 00:26:18

business for, you know, like at least

a year or I've done at least like a

562

: 00:26:21

couple of, you know, launches and, and

offers have gone out into the world.

563

: 00:26:26

Then, um, are you noticing that you

are getting like a new crop of people

564

: 00:26:30

each time, because someone may graduate

from your services and it's time for

565

: 00:26:34

them to move on to somewhere else.

566

: 00:26:36

Or are you noticing that even if that

was what you had intended, you having

567

: 00:26:40

these like loyal group of people that

are hanging out with you almost for every

568

: 00:26:45

single offer and you're not expecting it.

569

: 00:26:47

Right.

570

: 00:26:48

So it can be that, that, that

place where it's like, Oh, hang on.

571

: 00:26:52

Are they, I thought I was just helping

the people at the beginning, but now

572

: 00:26:56

these people who already went through my

beginning are still with me and they're

573

: 00:27:00

still buying stuff, you know, so they're,

they're at that, that different evolution.

574

: 00:27:04

They need that different layer of,

um, you know, of support and, and, uh,

575

: 00:27:10

different kind of, I mean, we change

as business owners and we kind of will

576

: 00:27:15

evolve our own offers and kind of move

away with things or add other things.

577

: 00:27:19

But we, we often have, um, uh, at least

a little subset of people that are very

578

: 00:27:24

loyal and they're coming with us too.

579

: 00:27:27

And that, that's a great

opportunity for you to say, Okay.

580

: 00:27:30

Then do I want to provide something

for them or do I want to like bless and

581

: 00:27:34

release and let them graduate on and refer

them to the other things because I want to

582

: 00:27:38

stay in, you know, at this certain stage.

583

: 00:27:41

Right.

584

: 00:27:41

And your VIP bumps can help with that.

585

: 00:27:45

Like it, you know, you can, you can help

then make sure that those people feel

586

: 00:27:49

ready to move on somewhere else, or you

can keep a core offer and experiment

587

: 00:27:54

with what that next level offer

would, would look like for the that,

588

: 00:27:58

that are still hanging out with you.

589

: 00:28:00

Yeah.

590

: 00:28:00

And because sometimes that next level,

like what you're making a VIP option

591

: 00:28:06

is actually its whole own thing.

592

: 00:28:08

And it doesn't necessarily need

to be an option for this offer.

593

: 00:28:12

It can be like a

graduation, like you said.

594

: 00:28:14

So it can be like, do you, do you need

to have that even on there or do you just

595

: 00:28:19

need to have that as a standalone thing?

596

: 00:28:21

That's completely separate its

own sales page, its own, you know.

597

: 00:28:25

Yeah.

598

: 00:28:26

And the answer can be yes to both, right?

599

: 00:28:29

Yeah.

600

: 00:28:29

Cause like you could use that, that

VIP option to test, to experiment, to

601

: 00:28:34

try out a new offer without it needing

to stand on its own, just to see if

602

: 00:28:38

you're seeing like, like, you know, that

your humans kind of, kind of, um, self

603

: 00:28:42

separate and pick where they want to be.

604

: 00:28:44

And one of my, my favorite ways

is if you're like, Oh, I really

605

: 00:28:48

want to make this a bonus.

606

: 00:28:49

I really want to make this a VIP.

607

: 00:28:50

I really want to do this and it

doesn't actually have any direct link.

608

: 00:28:55

Put it in the FAQs and make your question

of, is this going to help me with.

609

: 00:29:00

insert what this other option is actually

going to help people with and then tell

610

: 00:29:04

them say no actually this program is for

blah blah blah if you're looking for help

611

: 00:29:09

with blah blah blah then click here and

then they can go and they can see that

612

: 00:29:14

other one so you aren't um overwhelming

people you're not offer stacking for

613

: 00:29:18

no reason you know and you're keeping

things kind of like clean and you know

614

: 00:29:23

And still directing, you know, your, your

humans to where they want to go so they

615

: 00:29:28

can still self select and choose and not

feel like they have to take this offer

616

: 00:29:33

and hopefully it will do what they want.

617

: 00:29:35

Yeah.

618

: 00:29:36

Yeah.

619

: 00:29:37

My gosh, we could talk about this for

hours, but because we're talking about

620

: 00:29:40

having those like tears, the last thing

that I want to cover off is how do

621

: 00:29:45

you make the tears different enough?

622

: 00:29:48

Because I've had a lot of experiences

where, um, Where I've seen where

623

: 00:29:52

you have program a and then option,

you know, option a and option B and.

624

: 00:29:58

And it being that they're not different

enough so people can get confused,

625

: 00:30:03

especially if your original offer,

like, and I see this, um, quite often

626

: 00:30:07

with membership programs where the

initial membership comes with some

627

: 00:30:10

kind of, um, coaching or support.

628

: 00:30:13

And then the, the second offer just

comes with more coaching and support.

629

: 00:30:17

And.

630

: 00:30:18

You know, just wondering

your thoughts around it.

631

: 00:30:20

Cause I can, I find it sometimes a

little bit confusing, both if I'm

632

: 00:30:25

deciding to join a membership program

going, well, do I even need that one?

633

: 00:30:29

Am I going to get that

in the, in the first one?

634

: 00:30:31

Like, what is the benefit to me?

635

: 00:30:32

And, um, yeah, I think it's

something that you can get stuck on.

636

: 00:30:35

And I think also it comes from

that same place of like, Oh,

637

: 00:30:38

well, so and so coach said.

638

: 00:30:40

I should have a high ticket

or a high tier offer.

639

: 00:30:43

And then you're creating it to meet

your need for a high tier rather

640

: 00:30:47

than from the customer's perspective.

641

: 00:30:49

But what's your thoughts around that, you

know, that situation where it's kind of a

642

: 00:30:54

slightly better version of the same thing.

643

: 00:30:57

And you actually, um, said it

in the words that you used.

644

: 00:31:01

You said, what's in it for me?

645

: 00:31:02

Where's the benefit?

646

: 00:31:04

And this is a case where even in

your pricing card as the customer,

647

: 00:31:07

you mean like, like the what for me?

648

: 00:31:09

Yeah.

649

: 00:31:09

Like, like, you know, e even in

the pricing card, even whenever you

650

: 00:31:13

are, you know, listing with your

little plus signs or your check

651

: 00:31:16

marks or whatever you wanna use.

652

: 00:31:17

Yeah.

653

: 00:31:18

You know?

654

: 00:31:18

And, and that is classically

listing features.

655

: 00:31:21

Yeah.

656

: 00:31:21

The part above has to be a

description of who needs it.

657

: 00:31:26

So you're calling out the

characteristics of who's right for

658

: 00:31:28

this versus who's right for that.

659

: 00:31:30

Yeah.

660

: 00:31:31

Right.

661

: 00:31:31

And this is also your place

to set up expectations.

662

: 00:31:35

So if we go back to that example of

like these loyal people that you thought

663

: 00:31:39

would have already moved on and yet here

they are year three, then it's like,

664

: 00:31:43

if you're someone who's already three

plus years into business and you're

665

: 00:31:46

really wanting a higher level focus

of blah, blah, blah, choose this one.

666

: 00:31:50

If you're someone who feels like

you have, um, you know, private

667

: 00:31:53

circumstances or situations, or you

need to move faster than what the

668

: 00:31:58

program schedule is, choose this one.

669

: 00:32:01

Yeah.

670

: 00:32:01

So, you know, I mean, like you were

straight up calling out, um, who is it

671

: 00:32:05

right for, but by your criteria as the

creator, because that's who you want to

672

: 00:32:10

serve in this group versus that group.

673

: 00:32:12

But also, so they're like, Oh, okay.

674

: 00:32:14

I clearly see this.

675

: 00:32:16

This is a membership.

676

: 00:32:16

It has group coaching.

677

: 00:32:18

I don't feel like I need the one

on one private once a month or the

678

: 00:32:22

Voxer access or the whatever else,

um, because all of these things fit

679

: 00:32:26

me, or I really want this membership.

680

: 00:32:29

I'm glad that we have full access to

stuff instead of things being dripped out,

681

: 00:32:33

but I'm not fully sure where to start.

682

: 00:32:35

Start or I'm trying to

launch this promo right now.

683

: 00:32:38

So I need extra help, but

then I want to work on this

684

: 00:32:41

other thing in the background.

685

: 00:32:42

Great.

686

: 00:32:43

Here's an SOS Voxer access for you.

687

: 00:32:46

Well, it on, on like the, um, a

separate episode for pricing, something

688

: 00:32:50

that I keep not saying, because I'm

like, it's going to be a whole other

689

: 00:32:53

episode is like, what bonuses do I add?

690

: 00:32:56

You know, why do I do this?

691

: 00:32:57

Why do I do that?

692

: 00:32:58

So it, whenever you're thinking about

a VIP offer, It's also a case of like

693

: 00:33:03

the bundle example I gave earlier,

is it something that's going to help

694

: 00:33:06

somebody achieve the original promise

then tick the box and make that a

695

: 00:33:13

bonus, make that an extra thing that

they're going to get because it's going

696

: 00:33:17

to elevate, um, what you already told

them that they're going to get right

697

: 00:33:21

in setting up those expectations versus

thinking, um, Oh, I could give them.

698

: 00:33:27

You know, a group call in a month

and access to an evergreen product

699

: 00:33:32

that I already have as a VIP.

700

: 00:33:34

And it's like, okay, one, do those relate?

701

: 00:33:36

How does it help them get that original

promise that you put all the way at

702

: 00:33:41

the top of the page, the whole thing

that you've been saying on socials

703

: 00:33:44

and in all of your lives and every

other mechanisms that you're using.

704

: 00:33:49

Um, and if it doesn't hit that, then.

705

: 00:33:51

Put it down in FAQ and let them decide

which one do they need, um, or decide,

706

: 00:33:55

okay, no, this needs to be in the program.

707

: 00:33:57

It needs to be a bonus.

708

: 00:33:58

It's not a part of the core content,

but it's something they need or

709

: 00:34:02

it doesn't have a place at all.

710

: 00:34:04

And I need to save this for

a separate promo, right?

711

: 00:34:06

Like you were saying earlier.

712

: 00:34:07

Yeah.

713

: 00:34:08

And I think it's such a good exercise

to go through with what you're saying.

714

: 00:34:12

Like.

715

: 00:34:13

Think for yourself.

716

: 00:34:14

Like if you had to just write it

down, if someone asked you, if they

717

: 00:34:17

got on a, on a call and they were

like, well, this is my situation.

718

: 00:34:21

Is it right for me?

719

: 00:34:22

Like, can you answer someone?

720

: 00:34:24

Can, if someone said to you,

which option should I choose?

721

: 00:34:27

Can you go, Oh, you're in this situation.

722

: 00:34:30

You should choose that.

723

: 00:34:31

Or you're in that situation.

724

: 00:34:32

You should choose that.

725

: 00:34:33

So actually really thinking

about it from that.

726

: 00:34:36

Who is this rightful with your own offer?

727

: 00:34:38

Like thinking, well,

who is that version for?

728

: 00:34:41

And who is that version for?

729

: 00:34:42

And then literally calling that out,

it's going to enable if you can't do it.

730

: 00:34:46

Then there is absolutely no way in

hell your potential customer client

731

: 00:34:51

student is going to be able to do it.

732

: 00:34:53

So it's a, it's a nice exercise to go

through to see, am I being clear enough?

733

: 00:34:57

Yeah.

734

: 00:34:58

And it is a flag for yourself to

realize that you haven't fully

735

: 00:35:03

fleshed out your offer yet.

736

: 00:35:04

Exactly, right, which is okay.

737

: 00:35:06

You can be in the middle

of or like in prelaunch.

738

: 00:35:09

Hopefully you're not all the way to

promo time, but you know, like, like

739

: 00:35:12

you can be in prelaunch and you're,

you're trying to, you know, make sure

740

: 00:35:15

your page is all done and trying to

get all the final details going and

741

: 00:35:19

then be like, Oh, I'm not really sure.

742

: 00:35:21

Okay, great.

743

: 00:35:22

Go back to what you wrote or someone

wrote for you on the page and see

744

: 00:35:27

who are you already calling out?

745

: 00:35:28

What expectations are you already setting?

746

: 00:35:31

And have you put all of the materials,

all of the things, all of the time in

747

: 00:35:35

place to tick those boxes before you

ever worry about adding anything else?

748

: 00:35:41

Yeah, exactly.

749

: 00:35:42

Exactly.

750

: 00:35:43

Yeah.

751

: 00:35:44

That's what helps people

feel like you can add later.

752

: 00:35:47

Like you don't have to

do it right off the bat.

753

: 00:35:50

It can be like, Oh, well this

launch, I'm going to keep it simple.

754

: 00:35:52

And then next launch, I'm going to see

like, especially if it's a new program,

755

: 00:35:56

like, where are people getting stuck?

756

: 00:35:58

Like, what am I getting people going?

757

: 00:36:00

Oh, I wish you did that.

758

: 00:36:01

And you might decide to put that

in the original offer, or you might

759

: 00:36:04

be like, Oh, that is the perfect

thing that I could have is that

760

: 00:36:08

accelerated or enhanced, you know,

761

: 00:36:13

It's like the, the, keep it simple.

762

: 00:36:15

If you can't like be super clear

about it, then just leave it off

763

: 00:36:19

and, you know, bring it in later.

764

: 00:36:21

You can offer it as, you know,

a separate program and upsell.

765

: 00:36:24

There's so many different ways that you

can sell something else down the track.

766

: 00:36:26

Like don't put something in just

because you think you should.

767

: 00:36:31

Yeah, you know, like you can

straight up gift it and be like,

768

: 00:36:33

Hey, I've been hearing from a

lot of you that this is going on.

769

: 00:36:37

I think this is going to help.

770

: 00:36:38

So I'm going to go ahead and you know,

everybody's going to get access to

771

: 00:36:41

this and I'm going to do a special

live in our group, you know, community

772

: 00:36:46

and let you know how this fits in.

773

: 00:36:48

Yeah.

774

: 00:36:48

You know, like there, there's lots

of different ways that you can do it.

775

: 00:36:52

And then in the next launch, it can be

something that you're, you know, that

776

: 00:36:55

you're charging for that year or whatever.

777

: 00:36:57

But, um, and that, that leads to

yet another, we'll save it for a

778

: 00:37:00

different episode of, of talking

about surveying your people, when to

779

: 00:37:05

do it, what to ask, how to ask it.

780

: 00:37:07

It is, it's beyond satisfaction

and it's beyond just testimonials.

781

: 00:37:11

You can do both at the same time.

782

: 00:37:12

And, and that's all I'll say about that.

783

: 00:37:14

Yeah.

784

: 00:37:14

I know.

785

: 00:37:15

And then I'm like, Oh, that's opening

up a whole nother, um, Episode about,

786

: 00:37:19

um, doing things because you think

it's like being so worried about

787

: 00:37:22

setting up the perfect offer or the

right offer or doing something wrong.

788

: 00:37:26

There is no right or wrong.

789

: 00:37:27

There is an offer.

790

: 00:37:28

You see how that lands and then

you tweak, adjust, keep the

791

: 00:37:32

same, whatever for the next time.

792

: 00:37:33

And that comes back to surveying.

793

: 00:37:34

So just, you know, if you're

stressing out about it, just.

794

: 00:37:38

Pick, pick a lane, stick in that lane.

795

: 00:37:40

And then next time you

can pick a different lane.

796

: 00:37:42

There is no, you know, you were

going to have more than one

797

: 00:37:45

launch, more than one product, more

than one offer in your business.

798

: 00:37:48

So don't be so fixated on getting it

right and getting it perfect that you

799

: 00:37:52

don't put anything out there like.

800

: 00:37:54

Just do it.

801

: 00:37:55

And then you can do it again and again

and again and again, like, and yeah,

802

: 00:37:59

I know that especially if you haven't

launched before, you feel like this first

803

: 00:38:02

launch or the first product that you

put out there, like if you don't get it

804

: 00:38:05

right, your entire business and future

success, everybody's going to hate you.

805

: 00:38:10

And yeah.

806

: 00:38:10

Yeah.

807

: 00:38:11

Yeah.

808

: 00:38:11

And, and that, that is what, that

is, well, and that, that is just

809

: 00:38:16

a fear and a doom spiral, right?

810

: 00:38:18

Because the more open, the more human

you are with people, like, you know,

811

: 00:38:22

afterwards you can say like, send the

email to all the people that didn't buy

812

: 00:38:26

and be like, you know, thanks so much for

sticking with me through this promo time.

813

: 00:38:30

It was actually a bit of a back and

forth between do people need this?

814

: 00:38:34

Do they not?

815

: 00:38:35

If you have a strong opinion,

please hit reply and let me know.

816

: 00:38:38

Otherwise know that I am always thinking

about how I can make this better.

817

: 00:38:41

And I appreciate you just

being in my community.

818

: 00:38:44

Yeah.

819

: 00:38:44

And, you know, and that's just sending

them an email saying, thanks for being

820

: 00:38:49

there, but also showing it's like, you

are actually wondering what do they need,

821

: 00:38:53

which is a cue for them to give you more.

822

: 00:38:56

Right.

823

: 00:38:57

Uh, you know, and, and, uh, above

all, like the greatest litmus test for

824

: 00:39:01

all of this is just to remember that

everything is a suggestion, even what

825

: 00:39:04

the two of us are saying right now, it

is all a suggestion for you to take on.

826

: 00:39:09

And.

827

: 00:39:10

You know, I, I really, I understand.

828

: 00:39:12

Yeah.

829

: 00:39:12

You know, and, and I understand and I

feel that there's a lot of pressure,

830

: 00:39:17

you know, with what we're doing.

831

: 00:39:18

And so we feel like every single

dollar, every single, you know, um,

832

: 00:39:23

piece of, of option, every single

person that comes on our email list

833

: 00:39:26

that may end up hating us, you know,

all these kinds of, of, um, real, yeah.

834

: 00:39:33

Like it makes everything

feel like it's do or die.

835

: 00:39:37

And we can promise you after

all of our years of combined and

836

: 00:39:40

individual experience that it's not.

837

: 00:39:43

And if you treat people like

humans, they will forgive.

838

: 00:39:48

They will forget.

839

: 00:39:49

They will move on.

840

: 00:39:50

Some people will love you forever.

841

: 00:39:52

And never buy from you or not need

to consume your content because they

842

: 00:39:55

already know you in an other way, right?

843

: 00:39:58

So it, whenever you're feeling

all of that kind of pressure of,

844

: 00:40:02

I have to do what this guru says,

because I have to pay my mortgage

845

: 00:40:05

and I have to get these things done.

846

: 00:40:07

And this, and if this doesn't look

right, my business is going to fail.

847

: 00:40:10

Um, that, that is that, that

fear part coming in and that's a

848

: 00:40:14

time when you got to step back.

849

: 00:40:16

You got to go to whatever network you

have, you know, your, your family,

850

: 00:40:20

your partner, your friends, yourself

in a tree, you know, hug a tree.

851

: 00:40:23

It does a lot of good.

852

: 00:40:25

You know, it's like what, whatever, um,

is in there to kind of, uh, Separate

853

: 00:40:30

that and realize that, yeah, your

money may be, may be tight right now.

854

: 00:40:35

It may be a case of you feel embarrassed

or you feel shame of what someone's

855

: 00:40:40

going to think about how well you did

or didn't do, or whether you're going

856

: 00:40:43

to get to put out a, a successful

launch post in some group or whatever.

857

: 00:40:48

But.

858

: 00:40:49

Your health, your mindset, your, you

know, like all of that safety parts for

859

: 00:40:55

you matters more and the rest will work

itself out like we don't have to put.

860

: 00:41:03

You know, our, our newborn babies,

you know, college money on our very

861

: 00:41:09

first offer that we put out there.

862

: 00:41:11

Right.

863

: 00:41:12

And, and that, that can be very

difficult to separate yourself from,

864

: 00:41:15

but the sooner that you start to do

that, The, the less bumpy your entire

865

: 00:41:20

entrepreneurial journey will be.

866

: 00:41:22

So that was a little PSA, Sue.

867

: 00:41:23

Sorry.

868

: 00:41:24

I had to make sure to get

that in for everybody.

869

: 00:41:27

I will.

870

: 00:41:27

And it, one of the easiest ways to

get out of that spiral is to, to take

871

: 00:41:32

the focus off your needs and what you

want and put it onto your audience.

872

: 00:41:35

Like what does my audience need

and how can I help them with it?

873

: 00:41:39

Rather than going, Oh, it's like.

874

: 00:41:42

Like doomsday and, and, you

know, like, that's what you said

875

: 00:41:45

right back in the beginning, like

when you were even crafting the

876

: 00:41:47

offer, like, what do they need?

877

: 00:41:49

How will this help?

878

: 00:41:50

And yeah, that, that makes you then get

the focus off of that, that you stuff

879

: 00:41:56

and in the most important place, which

is with your customers and, and what

880

: 00:41:59

they need so that you can create things

to, to support them that also support

881

: 00:42:04

you too, which is the whole beautiful.

882

: 00:42:14

Thank you for joining me here in

cocktails, coffee, and conversations.

883

: 00:42:17

Be sure to check out the show notes

for all the links mentioned today.

884

: 00:42:20

And while you're there, I'd love

for you to rate and review the show.

885

: 00:42:23

And if you have a topic or question you

want me to answer, I want to hear it.

886

: 00:42:27

Head to Tracie Patterson.

887

: 00:42:28

com slash AMA and ask me

anything about business.

888

: 00:42:32

If I don't know it, I'll bring it

up with one of my guests until next

889

: 00:42:36

week, be well and have some fun.